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Loin Girders

A passionate orthodox Christian man's occasional blog to support those who stand firm. Gird your loins, noble warriors for Christ.

Thursday, June 30, 2005



This judgement thing is very tricky. Judging right from wrong...on what criteria? The Supreme's error is that they are deciding that there is no such thing as an inalienable right, granted from God. Their ruling tacitly supports the notion that all rights are granted by men to themselves, with the help of wise men and women on the court. When Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment, he went right here. I am God and you are not, serve me (to paraphrase). The reason we need to remove those damn Ten Commandments is that it is too obvious that we are violating them at the level of the state. The "controversial" commandments are the top four, not the adultery and stealing ones, though we culturally equivocate on them as well. This is screwey. The Supreme Court is reinterpreting the founding principles of our country. Shouldn't we have talked about it a little first? The need the justices had to rationalize this is seen by the fact that there were two official opinions (majority and minority) in the five four ruling, but that eight of the nine justices also wrote their own opinions on it, to clarify things. Baloney. The eight written essays are proof that there is no clarity on their interpretation. This is trouble, undoubtedly coming to a courthouse grounds or courtroom foyer near you. The ACLU, I'm sure is ecstatic. Barry Lynn is doing back flips. I'm bummed.

16 Comments:

  • At 3:37 PM, July 01, 2005, Blogger Dan Trabue said…

    Sorry you're bummed, friend. This is a topic with no great impetus for me. What causes some to so desire seeing the 10 commandments posted anywhere in particular?

    Do some think that Jesus would have pushed the Romans to post the Ten Commandments? While governmental actions (good and evil) can be used by God, they are not godly in and of themselves. They are an imperfect human creation.

    Going to City Hall or the Post Office and posting the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule or Dave Letterman's Top Ten ways to be Holy is not going to change much of anything so far as I can see. And for a secular agency to do so could be rather offensive to some.

    And when I'm talking about being offensive, I'm not talking about those of other faiths or no faiths. I'm thinking of my Christian friends, for instance, who would take offense in a government wrapping itself in words from my faith that mean nothing to said government. It is a mockery, to me, for the same government that leads us in war to post "Thou shalt not kill" on its walls.

    This is similar to me to prayer in school. Why would I want some teacher (whose belief system I don't know and may find troubling) to lead my children in his or her prayer? What if they're praying for things I don't believe in or want my children to believe in?

    How it seems to me (maybe I'm wrong) is that those concerned about it are those "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...", ie, those concerned more about the way things look than the way things are.

    But maybe I'm wrong.

     
  • At 7:33 AM, July 02, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The reason we should revere them is that they are the foundation of the law that God has given us. They are the source of English Common Law that undergirds our country and has made us noble and justice-minded, respecting the equality of all men.

    Jesus was an orthodox Jew, more conservative than most, committed to the primacy of God and the letter of the law. I'm not sure what point you make in the second paragraph otherwise.

    Posting the Ten Commandments is acknowledging the authority of God. Surely you don't consider David Letterman equivalent?

    There is no such thing as a secular agency. Government was also a gift from God with specific responsibilities to keep the peace and mediate disputes. Moses, with the help of Jethro, began the court system of judges for the people. So, government doesn't wrap itself in words from our faith. Government derives its power from God, not the other way around.

    Your war hang up is something I can't deal with for you. Holding a standard for government that weakens its authority everywhere because you believe that killing is wrong in all cases kind of removes government from the sacred and makes it profane. Our founders talked more about this than nearly anything else.

    Your point about school says that you are protecting your children from the beliefs of teachers. That is because for you there is no foundation truth for beliefs to be found in the scripture to be held up in the stead of individual beliefs. I disagree. I want to be holy, and I want my government to provide a structure that supports my aspiration and supports it with teachings that are not arbitrary, but that are based on biblical principles, tested, tried and true and from the right source, not from man.

    And don't even go to "whose truth" charges. The commandments are not arbitrary or unclear, unless you are trying to bend them around men's sin. Then they become tiresome.

    Besides, I find no world religion that would disagree with them; not Christians, not Jews, not Muslims, all of whom hold them to be holy; not Buddhists or Hindus, whose "faith" is cast elsewhere. No, only defiant naturalists and secularist/atheists who want their own way to be substituted for God's want the commandments removed from our culture. They have an alternative to substitute. It is atheist narcicism.

    And one more thing. There is no danger of theocracy from Christians or Jews. These charges always come from secularist/atheists who use them as fear tactics. Freedom is central to the Judeo-Christian ethic because God expects our allegiance to be voluntary, not forced. Secularists, of course, want forced allegiance to their religion of relativist ethics and unbridled, infinite tolerance for everything they believe and nothing else. The assault on the culture is from the left, not the right. We are just trying to stand firm in the middle of the assault, protecting the foundation principles, which were clear to all for a couple of hundred years and have just recently become fashionably unintelligible to intellectuals.

     
  • At 5:09 PM, July 03, 2005, Blogger Dan Trabue said…

    So, in your mind, it would have been a good thing for Hitler to post the 10 commandments up in his office? It wouldn't be offensive to you as a Christian?

    It would for me. Just as I find Hitler's "God bless Germany"s and Bush's "God Bless America"s offensive.

    It's taking the Lord's name in vain (one of the 10 commandments, you know) when you make your anti-Christian policies and say they have God's stamp of approval on them.

    I'm much more interested in people living the ten commandments than idolizing them (another violation of the decalogue) or using them for political ends.

    Having said that, I'm not opposed to them being posted, as long as it's in the context of other philosophies. It's part of my Baptist heritage to bristle against the intermingling of church and state.

     
  • At 7:32 PM, July 03, 2005, Blogger Unknown said…

    OK. Now we have a conversation. Welcome, sky.

    The founders did put Christianity into our government, tacitly. There is nothing heavy-handed about mere Christianity. Jesus never twisted anyone's arm and never legislated or forced allegiance, so the founders didn't either. In fact, to honor the fact that we are created in God's image, they backed away from any legislation of any allegiance, except to nature's God. That is the point. We are now denying that freedom has any internal structure. If freedom is not to do as we ought, then it is destructive. It is license to do evil.

    One example of their wisdom was separation of powers. But they would roll over in their collective graves if they knew that our modern arrogance has led us to detach ourselves from our Creator. Jesus' claim that the greatest commandment was to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength was key. This is directions from God about priority. Any other starting point leads to destruction.

    No, our founders did not create a state religion. They didn't write the Ten Commandments into our Declaration. But have you read the Mayflower Compact? The charters of the individual states? The speeches and actions of the founders on these issues? The importance of religion to forming and maintaining a functioning state was never doubted, even by Jefferson and Franklin.

    As you may know, the signers were predominantly educated in classical thought, especially theology. They were profoundly religious men, of several faiths, but 97% plus Christian. They saw the founding of this nation and its role in world history as the continuation of the spread of knowledge of and obedience to God. A reading of their writings can give no other conclusion. God is still acting in creation and in our land. Like the people of Israel, we have spent a lot of time in the wilderness. But also like them, God in Christ has promised to be with us, until the end of the age. His mercy is neverending. His love is sure.

    The only thing we can do to earn his wrath is turn our back on him. We have. The confusion we now experience in knowing his will and our obdurate refusal to repent is the hallmark of our age.
    What will we reap?

     
  • At 7:52 PM, July 03, 2005, Blogger Unknown said…

    Dan'l,

    Of course Hitler's misuse of the Ten Commandments would rankle any Christian. Killing Jews and other undesirables at Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and other places was a heinous crime. If he had tried to perpetrate it in the name of Jesus Christ, it would have made it even worse, if that is possible.

    Hitler was not a Christian. To obviate the church Hitler went over its head, marginalizing the church by appealing to German nationalism, the sufferings of the people after WWI and the ideas of Nietzche about the superman race Germany could become.

    Allying Bush and Hitler as equivalents is moral confusion of the highest degree. In doing so you impute to him moral attributes and behaviors for which you have nothing to offer in proof but inuendo. Hitler killed six million in ovens, with "scientific" experimental mutilation of children. His crimes, and those of Saddam incidently, were monstrous. Offer something...anything...against President Bush that gives equivalency by the stretch of anyone's imagination. If you can't, as I've recommended before, get another tactic.

    You can do better than this, Dan. There are great reasons for being a pacifist. You have me chewing on several of them.

    So, it isn't really about posting the Ten Commandments, but what it means. Without discussion, judges have decided to act as if God were not part of our society, in fact to chase him from it unless He complies with their rules. This issue has just begun to be discussed. The elites have the power to force it down our throats, but just imagine what it is doing to the culture. It is a clear departure from the intent of the founders. But of course, if you believe that the Constitution and our organic law are "living" documents, you can decide that they mean whatever you want them to mean.

    God help us.

     
  • At 6:28 AM, July 04, 2005, Blogger Unknown said…

    I am not endorsing mixing religion and government. I am endorsing the important value that religion provides to the success of the state. If states want no Ten Commandments in front of their courthouse, then they can pass a law. To have the Supremes decide based on a "creative" reading of the First Amendment is legislating from the bench.

    Prayer should be personal and private. Religion should be expressed and involving. See On Two Wings by Michael Novak. According to historic accounts, the object of our republic was liberty. Liberty must be founded on virtue. And, finally, virtue is impossible without religion.

    So, religious discussion and debate on the meaning and practice of virtue should be on all our minds and lips. This century's belief that matters of faith are somehow less important and undebatable is a ruse. We live in God's world and should be interacting constantly, challenging each other and training our children to accountability as to what that should look like. We need the kind of discourse that Payne Hollow and Loin Girders and Fr. Neo enable.

    Doesn't this feel right? Of course it does. We are about important work here, defining and correcting our republic as we go on to perfection. We won't impose our thoughts and opinions and beliefs on others, but keeping them to ourselves is a kind of spiritual cowardice. There is a place for religion in public discourse. The founders planned it that way, clearly. We are just taking up their challenge in doing so.

    Happy Independence Day to all. And, I daresay, may God continue to bless America.

     
  • At 7:33 AM, July 04, 2005, Blogger Dan Trabue said…

    Kevin,

    Hitler and Bush are not exact equivelents. Nor were Hitler and Attila the Hun exact equivelents.

    But the fact that Bush may not be as monstrous as Hitler or Hitler as evil as Attila, doesn't make Bush (Or Clinton before him) morally right. I'm not about demonizing "the enemy" - I'm about all of us taking stands for right living. Sustainable living.

    And I find it creepy when government dips its big toe anywhere near my faith. Government has too much power to be corrupt and to corrupt.

    As to why I find it offensive that my gov't (whether it's Clinton or Bush) to "claim" God by its posting of the Ten Commandments is because we are degenerating into what I've called a compassionate fascism.

    Our policies (Clinton's NAFTA, Bush's invasion of Iraq, Reagan's Central American policies, to name but a few) have resulted/are resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands - hundreds of thousands. It seems more palatable to the American people because these deaths are the results of "collateral damage" or economic policy that aren't intended to kill but have that result anyway.

    Because of our uniquely powerful position in the world, our policies have a huge impact. Lives are at stake. And no, we're not gassing people in death camps, but people are dying as an outcome of our policies.

    So, this is why I find Bush, Clinton and Hitler equivelent, if not exactly equivelent.

    I'm speaking in generalities here because of space limitations. If you really don't have any idea about the deaths that are resulting from our policies, I'd be glad to write you and name them for you.

    If you think that individuals are responsible for their actions, even unintended results, then you've got to be concerned about our nation's actions. Sorry if this is rambling and afield of the topic, but it's not for me which is one reason why I'm rankled by our nation's posting the Ten Commandments.

     
  • At 5:29 PM, July 04, 2005, Blogger voixd'ange said…

    "I don't want my country to become as Ireland or the Middle East or any other place where war and hate are spread over differing beliefs in God."

    Please recheck your facts. The conflict in Northern Ireland has little to do with religion and everything to do with the remnants of British Colonialism. Sorry, but this particular subject is a real pet peeve of mine...

    Dan...I am a pacifist, I protested against the war. I still have my "God is not an American" sign. I can see the resemblance between Bush and Hitler...but Clinton? Isn't that a little extreme?

    Morpheus said
    "Hitler was not a Christian. To obviate the church Hitler went over its head, marginalizing the church by appealing to German nationalism, the sufferings of the people after WWI and the ideas of Nietzche about the superman race Germany could become."
    I found this eerily similar to Bush tactics. But insted of marginalizing the church he is using and manipulating it to achieve his end. He has relentlessly appealed to American Nationalism and the sufferings and fears of the people over 9-11. He sought to perpetuate the idea that Patriotism of his variety is synonymous with being a Christian. I feel his agenda to impose "freedom" American Style across the globe to be arrogant and hypocritical, and reflective of an attitude of superiority, if not a superace.

    But on the Ten Commandments front...
    I am very wary of the idea of our country following in the footsteps of France who recently banned Muslim girls from wearing headscarves in public school in the name of separation of Church and state. I think taking offense at the sight of the religious symbols of another promotes intolerance. Haven't the big catch phrases of late been tolerance and unity? But then we turn around and say, " I'll tolerate it when you take it down, take it off, or get it out of my sight?" What the is that about?

     
  • At 9:15 PM, July 04, 2005, Blogger voixd'ange said…

    Wrongo. The religious labels are the same as gang colors in the inner city. The reds might be fighting the blues, but they aren't fighting over colors. They are fighting over what the colors represent. The Catholics represent the original Irish inhabitants of the Island. The Protestants represent the Church of England and the invadors who took Catholic/Irish Land, starved the Irish people, and pulled down their houses. It has nothing to do with religion. But when you allow the Britsih press to manipulate the facts, and paint it as a religious war, then you can evoke the emotion surrounding religious differences and hide the fact that you robbed the Irish people of their land and starved them in a nation of abundant food while propagating the idea of a ficticious potato famine.

     
  • At 7:19 AM, July 05, 2005, Blogger Unknown said…

    You are right, Angevoix, as to President Bush's use of religion to support his agenda. But, rather than look at this as manipulative, I believe that this is his actual beliefs in service to his policies.

    Dan has been trying to drag me into the pacifist camp for some time, with some success, if he only knew. I'm stuck on the horns of a dilemma. I can't rule out war in the service of higher purpose. I don't consider breathing itself to be a goal. I want to serve God, protect the innocent, oppose evil, promote the common good, right wrongs if I can. To stop at violence seems to subvert virtue in some way.

    I believe George Bush to be a simple man. His actions understood in that light disallow conspiracy theories, but they show a penchant for cause and effect policies. I also believe him to be pursuing God's will in what he does. This guy has been caught praying on his face by White House staff. He walks like a Texan, but he speaks like a man of some humility and personal empathy. He cries easily. He is self-effacing about his foibles. His wife appears to be a godly woman. So, I pray for him. I ask God to guard his family and guide him to peace and justice for America and the world. I pray he never stops cultivating an openness to finding the will of God going in a different direction than policies that benefit our country but short the world.

     
  • At 7:38 AM, July 05, 2005, Blogger voixd'ange said…

    You could be right in judging George Bush as sincere...how will we ever know the truth of what really goes on behind the doors of power? But I beleive he is sincerely wrong...
    I am much more concerned about his handlers...Rumsfeld, Chenney and the lot...

    As far as pacifism...it isn't the pie in the sky idea it is made out to be. Eastern Europe has had many successful peaceful revolutions,such as the orange revolution and the singing revolution of Estonia...but we don't hear anything about them because without any blood shed there is no story for the press... And lets not forget about Mahatma and India and our own Civil rights movement.

    I guess I'm a little testy on these issues because my sons are Indo - Americans and I'm a Celt...so British colonialism has hit both sides of our family. Also having brown skinned people in my family...Its very hard for me to watch footage of the prison abuse scandal etc... I have had so many friends from the Middle East. I'm tired of living in a Nation that acts as if people of color are expendable extras in a show about us. God is not an American...

    When George Bush first stood up and declared Iran to be a part of the "Axis of Evil" Iran was moving towards moderation more rapidly than it had for decades...now look. All of that progress was swept away virtually overnight by our foriegn policy... But we remain so pitifully uninformed as a nation, forming our opinions from 30 second sound bites. Our nation can virtualy do whatever it wants. Dictators throughout the ages have discovered that you can do what ever you want to people as long as they are well fed. Thus here we are, one of the fattest and least informed nations on the planet...

     
  • At 9:16 AM, July 05, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I have racially mixed children. One had been told by adoption authorities that she was 1/4 Sioux, so attended every Pow Wow within fifty miles and went to Black Hills State for a year. The adoption records were a lie. She was really African American and Norwegian. Her Norwegian-American mother didn't want to admit my daughter's father was negro. My other daughter, light skinned but negroid features, became "black" at school, as a self-defense mechanism.

    Personally, I'm a little weary of historical victimology. Instead of "can't we all just get along", I'm more inclined to "can't we all just get over it." Where we came from and why is no excuse. God put us here for a unique purpose and gave us good works to do. Let's do 'em.

    I'm also for calling a spade a spade, with respect. Iran got its reputation because they were and are the greatest supporters of terrorism in the Middle East. I'm sorry they are sensitive about it. The people in Iran are more moderate and modern than their government. Are you saying that co-dependent-speak would have been better? I don't want war with Iran, but I do want diplomatic clarity about what we feel about their support and financing of terrorist bombings in Israel and shelter for those who like to blow us up. If they take it personally, that's OK.

    We are fat. However, we are sure talking animatedly to each other about every aspect of our foreign policy and domestic policy these days. Dictators? You are a little torqued today, Angevoix. I don't expect hyperbole from you. Your posts are usually my fresh air.

    The conversations in the major media are lightly informed, but Krauthammer, Kristol, Coulter, Dionne, Friedman, Russert shallow? No. This morning I listened to James Glassman on CSPAN on global warming. Deeply informed and practical.

    Sky-
    There are two histories of Indian people in America. One romantic and tragic. The other historic and tragic. To which do you ascribe, Sky?

    Have a great 5th all!

     
  • At 12:00 PM, July 05, 2005, Blogger voixd'ange said…

    Ha Ha Ha.
    Even I have my moments.
    I appologize good Sir Morpeus,
    When I said that the Ireland issue is my pet peeve...I wasn't kidding. It makes my blood boil and evokes the spirit of Bodicca in this Celt. I come out swinging. My sincere apologies to all...
    Yes of course there are people who are informed beyond the normal 30 second sound bite... but I am dubious about the vast majority. It seems like I hear most people mouthing rhetoric with very little informaiton to back up the facts they are spouting. Yes, I do beleive that the people of Iran are more moderate than their government, but their government was moving towards moderation as well until the recent events unfolded. I am very saddened by it.
    And by the way your blog as well as that of Fr. Neo has served as a breath of fresh air to me as well. I appreciate the mental stimulation it provides. Hope no lasting offense was taken.

     
  • At 12:44 PM, July 05, 2005, Blogger Unknown said…

    I meant no disrespect, Sky. Your use of the term Native American had me probe. All my Indian friends call themselves Indian people. They leave Native American for academics, it seems.

    I know the tragedy of which you speak. I bet some of my relatives were persecutors, since one strung telegraph wires across the country and another drove a stage West. The Irish came late, though, to the problems of Western tribes. We were getting starved out and tacitly nudged into becoming an international people by the forces that Angevoix talks about on this page.

    Thanks for your posts and participation. You are welcome anytime. You may be a friend of Dan Trabue. If so, and if you are a Louisvillian, I'll see you two next time I visit my mother and brother there.

    We lived three blocks from Haskell Indian University when I was in graduate school at Kansas in Lawrence. My daughter, who we thought was Sioux, went with us to Pow Wows there. I have a PhD in Cultural Geography from Kansas with a Trans-Mississippi West North America focus. I know something about Indians, but not from the people themselves or from relatives, but just from books and interactions with people in my life. We could have a nice talk. Maybe someday we will.

     
  • At 10:26 PM, July 06, 2005, Blogger Dan Trabue said…

    jholder wrote:
    "But it causes me to raise a question: How do we live as Christians in such a situation? Denounce all governments? ...These are dilemmas that I have no answer to."

    Yes! Yes! Now THIS is what I'm talking about!

    I certainly don't know many answers myself but, like they say about porn, I know it when I see it! And I know wrong answers when I see them, too.

    Yes, I have a helluva time trying to choose between Bush and Kerry and Nader because they all push some answers that have life and death results. Some answers that have seriously unjust results.

    It seems to me that one of the mantras on gov't often quoted by conservatives is "First, do no harm." And this is my thought with elections - I'm going in to it looking at which candidate is likely to do the least harm to people and to justice. Nearly always that means I'm voting against an incumbent, just because they have a track record...

    But I'm drifting off the point. I agree that these are tough questions with unclear answers. AND I think these are just the sorts of questions that need to be wrestled with. Which I reckon is what we're doing right here.

    Which, to return to Morpheus' post which spawn all this, is another reason why I don't have much patience for talk about prayer in school or whether or not the 10c should be posted? Do you honestly think this is what Jesus would spend his days doing? No, it's time we dig in to the weightier issues of faith and humanity, I'd say.

     
  • At 6:24 PM, July 08, 2005, Blogger Dan Trabue said…

    There is SO much addressed here, but a brief one: Kevin, you suggested that my suggestion "removes government from the sacred and makes it profane." ??

    Please, government has often, loudly and proudly profaned itself without any help from me.

    Perhaps you could make separate posts for some of the thoughts voiced here to be more succinct in our conversations? I think these are great and important comments and conversations.

     

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